Subject : All about the Oticon Epoqs (one big post)
posted by Bryan on Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:58 pm
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Some of you may have noticed I've been posting some fairly high praise for the Oticon Epoqs over the past few days. But since it's been jumbled about in several threads I figured it would be a good idea to put it all together into one thread, for anyone who is thinking about getting these HAs.
So, the BIG post that follows is just a collection of the stuff I posted in other threads. I'm sorry if it sounds like an advertisement; I swear i have no financial interest in these guys (other than the roughly $6500 I and my insurance carrier put into buying the aids themselves). But I've been pretty impressed so far!
--- AH vs oticon Epoq ---
I have a ski-slope loss ranging from moderate to profound (110-120 db loss @ higher freqs). I wore AH aids for about 3 years.
I've had to transition away from the AH aids because AH can no longer legally sell them in my state (according to AH themselves). Now I'm wearing Epoqs - from their specs, I didn't believe would be workable for my loss. But the audie reassured me, and ... WOW is not a strong enough statement. These things are costly, but you might ask your audie about them. Make no mistake, I'm still a fan of AH and self-adjusting. But I have been mightily impressed with what a good audie can do with the Epoq HA.
--- Epoq fitting process ---
I can comment a little; maybe more in a week or so when I go for next visit.
I'm now wearing my Epoq XW's (with a custom earmold, not the dome or chinaman hat fittings) for the 3rd day. I've got a ski-slope loss that starts at moderate and goes to profound in the high ranges. Prior to the Epoq's I was wearing AH Freedom BTE's.
During, fitting, the audie did not use the HiPro box, but rather another box whose name I didn't catch (will try to report further after next visit). This box hooked via a single cable to a very large (perhaps 7 inches in diameter and 1.5 inches thick) pendant she hung around my neck. From there, thin cables (apparently just like my AH cables) went to small DAI-like shoes she attached to the Epoq's.
She did do what I think is called real-ear measurement - ie, she fed a very tiny microphone into my ear; the mold for the hearing aid went in on top of this. The, err, programmer program was displayed on a nice 42-inch flatscreen monitor for me to see, and it was Oticon branded. I did see the NOAH icon at one point. Then the program played a very jumbled soundtrack into my ear and essentially made almost all of the adjustments itself, producing a curve very close to my audiogram in just a minute or two. She tweaked the high end a little bit; the Epoq's don't quite have enough power to drive all the way to my 120db loss at the high end of the range. This process took about 5 minutes per ear.
This was followed by some time taken to add a telecoil program at slot 2 (there are 4 program slots in the Epoq's), and to set up my preferences for button presses. You can adjust the aids individually, or use a press of the button on either aid to change volume or program on both aids at once (I chose the latter and its working well). When I go back I will ask for a music program.
I'm *extremely* happy with the setup so far. It easily surpasses the quality I got from the AH aids, and I say this quite skeptically; I wanted the AH's to 'win' the comparison. (I can't get AH aids anymore; Washington state has outlawed mailorder hearing aids, aaaargh!). I'm doing better with speech in noise and in understanding people who are not facing me. Apparently the general program (slot 1) actually includes quite a bit of 'intelligence' and makes changes itself, based on situation. Honestly at this point I'm not tempted to tweak the aids myself; they're doing a great job in every situation I have had a chance to try so far.
--- Fitting process followup and comments on tech in Epoq ---
Quick followup. I was back @ audie office today for a class where they told us more about how the Epoqs work. The pendant-thing I described previously was a NOAHlink:
http://www.himsa.com/Products/NOAHlinkProgrammingInterface/tabid/120/language/en-US/default.aspx
It's the interface my audie used to do the actual programming of the Epoqs. For the real-ear measurement, she used:
http://www.medrx-usa.com/WebSite/pages/human/DLshuman/FLYER_REM.html
The real-ear measurement included this 'live speech mapping'; I questioned the audie closely on that. Couple other things I learned today -
+ The Epoqs know when I am talking (as opposed to someone else), via two main mechanisms. First they measure the decay of the received sound in the front mic vs the rear mic: since my mouth is much closer to the HAs than anyone else's mouth is, there will be much less decay between these two mics. Keep in mind the inverse square rule, for every three feet or so, dB level is halved. Second, since my mouth is equidistant from my ears, the Epoqs can generally say 'if the sound source is speech, AND it's equidistant from the two aids, AND the decay patterns from front-mic to rear-mic suggests the sound is coming from within 6-8 inches of the two aids, THEN it's probably the HA wearer's voice. Very nifty.
+ Similarly, with the Epoqs communicating with eachother all the time, they work to constantly keep relative volumes correct. IE: one HA hears sound at dB level X, while the other HA hears the same sound at dB level Y, because the two ears are not equidistant from the source of the sound. The Epoqs still amplify the sound, but working on concert with one another, they keep the *relative* amplification in line with the actual intensity of the sound they heard. Now that I understand this, I can see why the Epoqs have made sound so much more three dimensional than my old AH aids could do. It's really pretty amazing.
--- The Streamer ---
It works quite well with my cellphone, a Motorola RAZR V3t. When I press the 'phone' button on the streamer, the aids go silent (no sounds from world) for less than a second, then beep to let me know they went into phone mode, then return both phone and world sounds. I can press the button and issue voice commands to the phone with confidence. Sound from the cellphone is loud and clear, in both ears. No complaints about sound of my voice (via the Streamer's mic) from people I have called.
Music, via corded hookup to the Streamer (2.5mm stereo jack on Streamer; included cord that has 2.5mm plug on one end, 3.5mm plug on the other), has been satisfactory. I can't really be sure if it is stereo or not, but the reproduction has seemed faithful to me (remember: I am HOH after all!). Listening to music I know intimately from before my hearing loss, I hear details I couldn't hear before except by pushing my Shure E3's to distortion levels. And I detect no distortion from the Epoq's. However I wish I could get a little more volume from the Epoq XW's. Alas, there's no high power version of a RITE aid yet.
Distance. With music or phone, I experimented a bit. With Streamer in my shirt pocket, about 12" from left ear and 16" from right ear, sometimes I will lose Streamer-relayed sound in one ear. Oddly, it seems like the ear farther from the Streamer keeps sound better than the nearer ear! A quick turn of the head and it comes back. Using the neck strap solves this completely. I tried moving the Streamer (w/o neckstrap) away from my head, directly in front of my nose. With Streamer held vertically, I would lose sound in one or both ears starting around 8" from my nose. I soon discovered that the top of the Streamer (where the mic is) 'wants' to be pointed at the hearing aids; holding it horizontally with mic pointed at my head, I could get out to about 23" from my nose before losing sound in either aid.
So, for these functions, the Streamer is GREAT; I'm able to do stuff I just couldn't do before. However I still have a few needs I wish the Streamer could meet. The main one is a way to hook to ordinary POTS phones (non-cell). Most cordless phones these days have a 2.5mm headset jack; however the 2.5mm jack on the Streamer doesn't appear to handle mic input from the phone, so I can't use the Streamer with this type of phone. I can still use my CLA7 neckloop, but had hoped the Epoq/Streamer combo would reduce the number of gadhets needed to get through the day. The second need is similar to this; I'd like to have a way to plug RJ-11 handset cords directly into the Streamer.
At this point the Streamer, lacking any sort of information display, cannot siultaneously pair with two devices that are in range. So the 'phone' button connects you to whetever bluetooth device it is paired with; and the 'music' button connects you to the 2.5mm jack. To use a second bluetooth device, you must shut off the first one, or move it out of bluetooth range. That's a little frustrating.
Finally, I'd love it if I could pair the Streamer to some sort of remote microphone. But then this is my conference experience with prior HAs speaking; the Epoqs themselves may remove my need for a mic on the person speaking.
--- The earmold ---
The mold is pretty much like a CIC; it's down in the canal and basically invisible to anyone looking. They will only see the (very thin) wire. By the way, that wire has some memory metal in it. It's fairly stiff/springy and it always returns to the shape the audie formed it to. So don't think of it as just a loose and floppy wire that goes where it wants; the stiffness of the wire keeps my BTE in place *better* than the tubes/earhook used on my previous BTEs.
Back to the mold. I had expressed a desire for silicone mold, so that's what I got. Your audie can use other materials I suppose. I like the silicone: it's soft enough to have some give as your ear canal changes shape when chewing, etc. Apparently it also expands just a bit with the heat of your ear, so yes, the fit is quite snug. I've never worn CIC's but I would guess the experience is similar, if not just a bit better because of the, err, 'rubbery-ness' of the silicone, as opposed to a hardshell CIC.
Mine came with a vent drilled in them, but the audie had installed a plug in the vent (unbeknownst to me). So I did feel a bit occluded until a few hours later when I discovered and removed the vent-plugs. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I prefer the vented feel and sound, even when listening to music directly through the aids (via the Streamer). Even with the vents plugged, the occlusion feeling isn't as bad as in other aids, because the Epoq is so good at determining when it's you talking, and amplifying enough - but not too much. Your own voice sounds natural whether the vents are plugged or not.
I don't have *any* of the chewing/jaw movement noises that were so prevalent with other aids. Again the Epoq just seems to get it right - it's almost spooky! Occasionally my wife notices feedback when we eat, but not nearly as often as with my old aids. And it cuts out very quickly, almost every time.
--- Spatial feature, DFC, 'My Voice', and speaker failures ---
I have the XW's (RITE style BTE's). I've not worn the W model, but I can say that the 'spatial' thing is absolutely amazing. I can locate sounds in space again, and that's a pretty awesome thing. When a cellphone or kitchen timer or something is beeping, then if I can hear it at all I can actually find it with my ears and not by scrabbling aorund frantically to locate a sound that comes from everywhere at once. Bathroom fans, computer fans, etc ... they don't seem to come from everywhere. Since I can locate the source of sound, my brain seems much more willing to file it away as 'known, safe, uninteresting' and tune it out. This allows me to better focus on the sounds I want to hear.
The 'my voice' thing is nice but not something I'm dancing in the streets about. The binaural DFC - I have to run my XW's near their full amplification, and frankly they can still feed back. Sometimes it will be a staccato feedback, as the feedback compensator finds the feedback, cuts it off, it starts again, rinse/repeat. Sometimes it's still a continuous whine. Most of it happens outside my own range of hearing so my wife spots it. I've had to go to a custom mold (deep in canal) and plug the vents to resolve this (so I do get some occlusion, but it's not bad). But your mileage may vary, especially if you need less gain than I do.
I've been wearing the XW's for 5-6 weeks now. Every day sound seems more natural, requiring less mental effort on my part to resolve into the things I need to hear. Wearing my old aids was a chore; wearing these is easy.
I must note, though: Last week, the RITE speaker blew in my left ear. It started putting out a LOT less sound. Wasn't a big deal, I was able to replace it with a quick trip to the office at no extra charge. But now I think the left one has gone bad too (just a few hours ago). So I'll have to go back in. And I am wondering if maybe the RITE aids shouldn't be driven to full gain levels for very long periods. I will be asking the audie about this; maybe there's a bad batch of speakers. More maybe the current generation of them isn't *quite* up to being driven at my levels of amplification for long periods. I'll also be asking if I can expect more durability from the ITE style.
Even with this caveat, I'm definitely sold on the Epoq XW's. Given these speaker problems I'm a little worried they might take 'em away from me, and I *really* don't want that.
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Subject : Re: All about the Oticon Epoqs (one big post)
posted by shhhh.shhhh on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:34 pm
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Thanks for the post, Bryan. That was a lot of useful info on the Epoqs in one place. I wear Widex CICs and have tried many open fits. The one big difference I have noticed is that I often speak either too loud or too soft while wearing CICs as opposed to speaking in a normal tone while wearing open fits. This especially happens when in meetings or at parties or outdoors where there is a lot of ambience noise. This didn’t seem to happen when I tried open fits. Now, you probably wouldn’t know if you are speaking too loudly or softly... just as I didn't until a few people pointed that out to me :). So, has anyone, your wife or friends, commented that you might be speaking either too loudly or too softly in any particular situation?
You mentioned the silicone mold. Is this the same as that shown in the brochures? The transparent mold with a wire sticking out. It looks a little hard in the pic and not rubbery :). Do your ear canals get a little sweaty if you wear it all day? All day = 8 to 10 hours.
How does Epoq perform in windy situations when you are outdoors? Do you hear a lot of rustling, roaring cars and a very confusing mix of noises? Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Shhhh
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Subject : Re: All about the Oticon Epoqs (one big post)
posted by Bryan on Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:25 am
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Actually I'm doing a lot better at speaking in a normal volume now that I have the Epoqs; I have a better sense of how loud I'm talking now. Yes, my wife noticed this. She's been as amazed as I have been - she actually notices that we can have (for instance) a conversation in the kitchen, while not always squarely facing one another. Or she can say something from just down the hall, out of my sight, and - o miracle! I actually understand it!
Not sure which brochure you mean, but the silicone molds I got are definitely rubbery. I can pinch them and they deform, but always return immediately to prior shape. I've been wearing the aids all day; no problem with sweat. I do get a little wax that I have to brush off of the molds each night, though.
Wind blowing across the mics has been noticeable. Not as bad as with my old aids, though. Traffic noises when walking around ... *much* better with the Epoqs. I do notice the sounds but they are three-dimensional again, so I can locate individual sounds and unconsciously tune them out, unlike with old aids where it all seemed to combine into one big chaotic roar that I could not escape or filter out.
I am not sure how to put it. With my old aids, it was like being trapped in an AM radio with only one knob to adjust (bass/treble). That's not really true, as I had many controls to work with in the AH programming software - but out on the street you have your 4 programs and your volume knob. Sound is different every day and one street has different sounds than another; often none of my programs would really work well for the situation at hand.
The Epoq uses a different strategy. The aids talk to eachother constantly, but work mainly to deliver a quality reproduction of the actual situation, only tuned for the deficiencies of my ears specifically. Once that 3-dimensional 'sound picture' is painted, they let my brain do the rest of the processing. They don't attempt to second guess my brain - only to deliver what my ears would have, if they worked right.
And it works well! I can locate the sources of sound much better than I could before, much more naturally. It's like coming out of that AM radio into the middle of a symphony orchestra. I can find the trumpets over *there* to my left and behind me; the violins dead center in front of me, the kettle drum just to my right. Same is true in that traffic situation. Since sound is 'working right' again, I find I'm able to locate and focus on the sounds I need to know about, and dismiss the ones I don't need.
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Subject : Re: All about the Oticon Epoqs (one big post)
posted by shhhh.shhhh on Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:44 am
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Wow! That sounds good enough. I'll try the EPOQs soon. :) Thanks for your feedback on the EPOQs. Cheers.
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Subject : Re: All about the Oticon Epoqs (one big post)
posted by Bryan on Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:05 am
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I wish you luck with them. I hope you are as happy with them as I have been, but of course we are all different animals.
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Hard of Hearing Advocates 245 Prospect Street, Framingham MA 01701
Phone: (508) 875-8662 Fax: (508) 875-0145, Email: hoha@charter.net
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